Secrets of a Master Conversationalist: 5 Tricks I Learned from Cal Fussman's Podcast "Big Questions"
Admittedly, I’m a podcast fanatic.
I binge audio the way most folks watch TV shows. These days I’m listening to 20+ hours per week, and that’s the beauty of audio: I converted nearly all of my dead-time doing chores and commuting into valuable education and inspiration.
Whether it’s Malcolm Gladwell’s journalistic Revisionist History, Seth Godin’s Akimbo, or John Green’s The Anthropocene Reviewed, I’m constantly absorbing new ideas, techniques, and stories.
And when it comes to story, you need look no further than Cal Fussman.
Cal Fussman
While not a household name, Cal is a legend in his field.
A New York Times Bestseller Author and journalist who won the prestigious James Beard Foundation Award, Cal has interviewed dozens of global leaders including: Mikhail Gorbachev, Jimmy Carter, Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson, Al Pacino, George Clooney, Leonardo DiCaprio, Bruce Springsteen, Barbara Walters, Serena Williams, Kobe Bryant, and Muhammad Ali.
These days, however, he’s doing less writing and more speaking, as the host of his interview-based podcast Big Questions with Cal Fussman.
Big Questions
The premise of Cal’s podcast is simple: Long-form interviews with world class thinkers and performers across a variety of fields.
While the format is familiar, Cal’s approach is anything but.
As indicated by the name, Cal has a way of getting past small talk to the heart of what truly drives people. He massages incredible stories even out of closed-off guests, because he knows that where you went to college doesn’t really matter, but how your experience at college shaped you is a crucial part of your story.
In 2019 story is king, because the Internet simultaneously eliminated mass media and turned everyone into a marketer. In a micro media world, there may only be 1000 people on the planet interested in your product, service, mission, or idea. But in the age of micro media, you only need 1000 to make the change you seek to make. Maybe less.
How do you reach those 1000 people? By learning their stories and telling yours in a way that makes them say, “Yes! This is where I belong.”
Conversational Cal: 5 Tricks to Connect With People
Having recently binged dozens of episodes of Big Questions, here are five tricks, tips, and techniques for connecting with others and discovering their story I picked up from listening to Cal.
1. Use Their Name
If you follow my work you know how much I believe in the art of remembering people’s names. Nobody’s perfect, and I occasionally forget people’s names too, but there’s no denying the power in remember and using someone’s name.
Cal frequently uses his guests’ names while chatting with them. Not in every sentence or often enough to be off putting, but at least 5-10 times during an 60-90 minute conversation. In his interview with James Altucher (a must-listen masterclass in building a business from scratch), you can hear Cal say,
“I do these storytelling workshops, James, and a lot of times I do it only with CEO’s…”
And just a few minutes later,
“But again, and this, it’s amazing where this conversation started, James, because I think it really goes back…”
When I listen to my own podcast, I noticed I am much less likely to include someone’s name when speaking directly with them, especially once we are in full conversational swing. And yet the inclusion of their name makes it eminently personal.
Furthermore I realized when listening back to my own interviews, the guests I felt closest to were those who frequently used my name in conversation. Take for example Zoe Chance in S1.12:
“Well, if you want to be a super villain con artist, Brian, you could totally get that from coming to my class.”
It may feel weird at first to use people’s names when you’re already in full conversational swing, but it doesn’t feel weird to be on the receiving end. Quite the opposite, in fact.
2. Reflective Listening
Cal is a master of using reflective listening, a skill he undoubtedly developed as a prolific journalist whose primary goal was uncovering truth.
‘Reflection’ is an active-listening skill that involves paraphrasing something a person just said right back to them. Take for example Cal speaking with Heather Monahan, former Chief Revenue Office and named one of the most Influential Women in Radio 2017, about creating self-confidence:
Heather: “Leaving there and going to work for myself is so much harder, because if your computer breaks when you have 500 people working for you, it’s a text message: “I need a new computer, someone come fix this.” And within minutes someone brings you a new computer! You have assistants to book all your travel. You have a team of people that does your marketing. It’s easy!”
Cal: “It’s easier-”
Heather: “There’s this misconception that, yeah, the higher you-”
Cal: “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now I’m trying to really wrap my head around this. It’s easier for me to have 500 people working for me than it is to be doing this by myself?”
Heather: “Absolutely.”
The power of reflective listening is it demonstrates attention and understanding. And when people feel understood, we make a connection.
Cal often opts to paraphrase in the form of a question, like the example above, but there are two common variations to help you learn the technique: “So what you’re saying is…” and “What I hear you saying is…”
When in doubt, go for the latter. The former can occasionally be misinterpreted as trying to put words in someone’s mouth, while the latter places the misunderstanding on you, should you get it wrong.
3. Admit and Embrace Your Ignorance
It’s easy to fall into the trap of pretending to know something in an effort to appear more intelligent or well-informed than we actually are. But it rarely leads to a positive outcome.
If you really don’t understand what someone is talking about, what a word means, or get a reference they’ve made, you can’t possibly engage in a conversation about it. Depth comes from asking meaningful follow-up questions, but if you don’t know what they’re talking about, what are you going to ask next?
Instead of pretending, Cal does the opposite, freely admitting when he doesn’t know something and asking his guests to clarify.
Consider this exchange with futurist Brian David Johnson about evolving smart technology:
Brian: “For as long as [the QWERTY] keyboard has been around it has been turning us into machines so we can talk to the machines.”
Cal: “So, you’re saying that going forward I’m going to be more human without this keyboard. How?”
Brian: “Well, it’ll allow you to interact with your devices, with artificial intelligence, simply by talking to it. Imagine you could communicate with your house simply by living in it. We’re getting so much computational intelligence, and we’re getting so much intelligence in our devices that we can now interact with them in a way that’s much more natural to who we are as humans.”
Cal: “Explain how that’s gonna work, because I can’t- I walk into my house, and how am I communicating with it?”
You’ll notice he often couples this technique with reflective listening skills, “So, you’re saying that…” in order to demonstrate that he is in fact listening carefully, but just isn’t understanding. Just a few minutes later in the same conversation Cal says this:
“Okay, let’s go back to basics here. Because, I’m going to be honest: I have no idea what Artificial Intelligence is. Can you explain it to me?”
Cal’s willingness to risk sounding uninformed or ignorant is rewarded by giving him more opportunities to connect, ask interesting follow-up questions, and generally offer his guests the platform to be the expert.
4. ”You just taught me something.”
This one is unique to Cal. After listening to hours and hours of his interviews in a row, I couldn’t help but notice this conversational calling card.
Instead of saying, “That’s great,” or “Super interesting,” or any of the more mundane responses we might ordinarily use when our conversational partner inspires us with a new idea, Cal frequently says, “You just taught me something.”
It’s a beautiful use of language.
What I love about this exact wording is its explicitness: Cal outright states something we often mean to say, but don’t actually. Here he uses it when Daniel Pink speculates on innovating within a new medium:
Daniel: “I don’t think you figure it out by writing lots of pieces for The Atlantic about it. I think you figure it out by making stuff, and seeing if it works. And it’s probably not. The first incarnations are probably going to stink.”
Cal: “The difference, I think, between, like, a scientist and an artist – You’ve just taught me something here.”
Daniel: “Alright…”
Cal: “Because if I thought like a scientist, and I went by what you just said…”
Daniel: “Mhm…”
Cal: “It would be a hell of a lot easier to put something out knowing, “Well, this might stink, but it’s all part of the research!” ”
Daniel: “But that’s true! …”
If you listen to the episode, you can actually hear Daniel get excited and energized, because Cal lets him know for certain that something he’s said made a real impact on him.
It’s a similar approach to “I never thought of it like that,” but in an active way that empowers your conversational partner, rather than a passive way that empowers you.
5. Demonstrate Your Enthusiasm
One of my favorite Cal-isms is when he bursts out, “Oh, man!” after his guest says something truly insightful, surprising, or profound.
Cal expresses his emotions openly. He belly-laughs when something is funny or surprising, speaks very softly when something unsettles him, and decorates his end of the conversation as a listener with Whoa’s, Ahhh’s, and Oooh’s.
You can hear Cal do it in literally every conversation, but my favorite example comes from his incredible interview with Simon Sinek about his upcoming book, The Infinite Game. You really have to just listen to this episode to appreciate it.
These kind of verbal tics offer easy clues for his guests to understand how he’s feeling in any given moment, which puts them at ease. When you remain silent and stoic, containing your emotions and carefully monitoring your behavior, your conversational partner is more likely to second-guess themselves, because they have no idea if you’re enjoying their company and/or ideas or not.
This one doesn’t come naturally to everyone, but it’s worth considering if you want to connect with others on a deeper level.
Master Your Conversations
I’ve so enjoyed listening to Cal’s podcast Big Questions. His guests are endlessly fascinating and, to top it off, I feel like every episode is a masterclass in forming deep, meaningful connections.
If you’re new to his show, I really recommend starting with the Simon Sinek episode, The Infinite Game.
For info on Cal’s work, including his free resource “5 Tips to Asking Better Questions,” visit https://www.calfussman.com/.
